Curse

qvtkc · Sep 21, 2009, 04:34 PM // 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

Warrior's can't sustain their damage output. Our high numbers come primarily from FGJ.

(...)

That's the one and only problem I've ever really had with warriors: Adrenaline management.

Learn to play then, adrenaline management is second nature to any half decent warrior, if you knew it you would not need FGJ (which is one of my favorite skills, by the way, it's a great help but by no means necessary). The only build/s where FGJ really makes a huge difference is various Dragon Slash builds (godmode etc).

Jeydra · Sep 22, 2009, 12:08 AM // 00:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

Edit: There's also something else I want to add here, and that is: Warrior's can't sustain their damage output. Our high numbers come primarily from FGJ. If we're relying on FGJ, we almost always need Enduring Harmony, which pigeon-holes us into a paragon secondary, and takes up four of our slots right there - Flail (or Frenzy for you daredevils; god bless), Enraging Charge/Rush, Enduring Harmony, For Great Justice. We have trouble even fitting a resurrection skill into our bars.

Res skills are for heroes to bring since they can't bring PvE skills, For Great Justice! dropping isn't that major when you hit for 100+ damage on autoattacks (you still outdamage over half the classes in PvE), there's nothing stopping you from going /P for Enduring Harmony (so what if it locks half your skillbar? ER Elementalists pretty much have 6 skills locked, yet the template is still overpowered), Flail / Frenzy / whatever can all be substituted for by Drunken Master (and in any case you can use Enraging Charge + For Great Justice! for instant Save Yourselves!).

Frankly, all the people who have said Warriors are well balanced, please tell me: what isn't overpowered about Warriors?

ANet please nerf some or all of the following:

For Great Justice!
Strength of Honour
Asuran Scan
Save Yourselves!
And possibly some other skills I haven't thought of yet

Thank you very much!

Perfected Shadow · Sep 22, 2009, 01:08 AM // 01:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

It applies to warriors more so than other classes. Warriors are not as self-sufficient as other classes. This is a big part of their balance. They're easy to shut down, and they rely heavily on their backline. If I'm blinded, I'm useless, and my bar is already way too cramped to bring any real condition removal. If I'm being crippled a lot, I can either bring IAU or another condition removal and lose an integral skill (I need all 8 slots), or I can rely on my backline to do their job well.
...Our high numbers come primarily from FGJ.

Physicals usually do need the support you're talking about. Not just warriors. Others may have slight advantage with being able to bring more utility but warriors have a higher AL to compensate.

I agree about non-physicals though. But that is their tradeoff for higher damage. Non-physicals compensate for less damage by being more self sufficient and needing less support.

Your high numbers only come from FGJ? I haven't really played a warrior but aren't you forgetting WE builds that can also pack asuran scan?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

ANet please nerf some or all of the following:

For Great Justice!
Strength of Honour
Asuran Scan
Save Yourselves!

I don't believe it's good to nerf things that promote synergies and teamplay. They're not exactly overused (yes you don't see many packing SY at all) or used in 'farming' elite areas. I'm always against nerfs in pve with the exception of permanent invincibility. That's because you're just gonna get qq from nerfs, better to buff the skills from other classes that you find lacking.

qvtkc · Sep 22, 2009, 08:39 AM // 08:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

100+ damage on autoattacks

Do people still play NM? Why?

M @ T · Sep 22, 2009, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Res skills are for heroes to bring since they can't bring PvE skills, For Great Justice! dropping isn't that major when you hit for 100+ damage on autoattacks (you still outdamage over half the classes in PvE), there's nothing stopping you from going /P for Enduring Harmony (so what if it locks half your skillbar? ER Elementalists pretty much have 6 skills locked, yet the template is still overpowered), Flail / Frenzy / whatever can all be substituted for by Drunken Master (and in any case you can use Enraging Charge + For Great Justice! for instant Save Yourselves!).

Frankly, all the people who have said Warriors are well balanced, please tell me: what isn't overpowered about Warriors?

ANet please nerf some or all of the following:

For Great Justice!
Strength of Honour
Asuran Scan
Save Yourselves!
And possibly some other skills I haven't thought of yet

Thank you very much!

So you're talking about PvE. What is balanced in PvE anyway? Since the introduction to PvE skills and Consumables HM=NM and NM=LoL M.

You only hit 100 on autoattack in LoL M, sorry, NM. SoH is not a Warrior skill, Asuran Scan is universal, FGJ is used by Paras too and SY is universal /W too.

Jeydra · Sep 22, 2009, 01:15 PM // 13:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Do people still play NM? Why?

Good question. I haven't the slightest idea.

And I'm:

1. An Elementalist;
2. Not using a Conjure, even though I'm an Elementalist;
3. Don't have Orders;
4. Don't have Judge's Insight;
5. Using a Sword instead of Scythe / Hammer / Axe, which all have higher (crit) damage;
6. And by the looks of it Varda's GDW wasn't on me when I made that hit

Hmmmmm ...

PS: Thanks Varda

Ccat · Sep 22, 2009, 01:19 PM // 13:19

but you are using SoO. Plus you could have damage +20 while hexed on the sword along with a full Asura rank. Also, that's a squishy target.

ElnoreVarda · Sep 22, 2009, 01:33 PM // 13:33

welcome to guildwars, a team game! In this game, you have to cast spells on your allies

do make them do big damage.

Whats the problem?

its not +20 damage...its 20%, it affacets your base damage, ie 15-22 ... its more like +3.7 damage.

Can you people please answer what the problem with buffs not orginating from yourself is?

Xenomortis · Sep 22, 2009, 02:01 PM // 14:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ccat

but you are using SoO. Plus you could have damage +20 while hexed on the sword along with a full Asura rank. Also, that's a squishy target.

Of course! That's part of the point! Though the squishy target thing is less important.
Warriors are so easily buffed that they can reach rather insane damage quite easily.
I'll assume 15 Smiting on Tahl, so that's +25 damage. A max Asuran Scan would deal +75% on your base attack damage (I think).

It would be quite easy to exceed what Jeydra had:
13 Strength would put it at 13% Armour Penetration. A higher Swordsmanship rank would also have other benefits.
GDW would be another insane buff.
Orders.
Barbs.
Mark of Pain.

Those last two wouldn't show up as damage from the physical though.

It is hard to say Warriors are balanced. They have the capability to deal immense amounts of damage when properly supported. They can also spam Save Yourselves at the same time.

Of course, PvE wise, it's hard to say anything is balanced.

Terek Zelta · Sep 22, 2009, 05:55 PM // 17:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by qvtkc

Learn to play then, adrenaline management is second nature to any half decent warrior, if you knew it you would not need FGJ (which is one of my favorite skills, by the way, it's a great help but by no means necessary). The only build/s where FGJ really makes a huge difference is various Dragon Slash builds (godmode etc).

Do we really have to go there this early in the thread?

You missed my point.

I know how to manage adrenaline. You learn to compensate, and you're right, FGJ isn't necessary, but that's not my point either. What I'm saying is that it has its own, pretty major, drawbacks. Without FGJ, we're not overpowered. With FGJ, we're still not overpowered, and that's because of its mechanic, which I detailed in my last post. Yeah, even though we can run to the Master of Damage and get 90-110 raw DPS on him, in practice, that's not really how you use the build 9 times out of 10. I usually don't do anymore damage than the other damage dealers, because I'm rarely sitting there only spamming Dragon Slash.

Jeydra: We can agree to disagree. I already said that. I have no intention of convincing anyone of anything, I'm just making my point. If it bothers you that much, make a warrior if you don't already have one and play him or her seriously. M @ T said it nicely.

And I agree with you wholeheartedly! Nerf Asuran Scan, nerf SY. Do you know how many more options that'd open up for warriors? I would love that.

Perfected Shadow: Asuran Scan can be used on anyone. That's not a problem with warriors, that's a problem with poorly designed PVE skills that should've never existed in the first place.

And if you haven't played a warrior, do it, and watch. What I'm saying comes from personal experience, and not theory. Anyone can look at the skills, the builds, the numbers at Master of Damage, or what their warrior friends brag about, but in practice, things go differently, especially in HM.

Edit: I'm not the most articulate guy in the world, but just so there isn't anymore confusion, here's what I'm suggesting.

I'm not saying warriors are weak. Very far from it. I'm saying they're incredibly strong. The thing is, warriors are balanced in less obvious ways than other classes, and you'd really need to play them extensively to understand that. And they require more support than other classes because they're the first into battle, first on the frontlines, and a good warrior will know how to body block and take lots of damage, hexes, conditions, etc., a lot of which his armor won't save him from, but will only prolong his death and buy him time until his backline does their thing. Other melee classes, assassins and dervishes, although they can face these same challenges, often don't. Dervishes have their avatars, assassins have their shadowsteps, and neither charges into battle before the warrior does.

Saying that warriors are overpowered because of Mark of Pain, Strength of Honor, Orders, whatever, is retarded. Those are not warrior skills. I don't have any problems with them, because they can be used on any physical damage dealer. If you feel that strongly, call for nerfs on the aforementioned skills, not warriors.

Strength of Honor and what have you typically require whole builds devoted to maintaining them. That's team synergy. You're not necessarily gaining anymore power for your team, you're shifting the balance of power towards warriors. You an do that with almost any class.

Anyway, I really like this discussion. This thread's actually helped me complete my PVE Eviscerate build because it's gotten me thinking, heehee.

Jeydra · Sep 22, 2009, 11:49 PM // 23:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

Quoted for truth. Was going to say the exact same thing.

I find it hard to imagine that some Warriors think it's hard to outdamage an Elementalist using a martial weapon

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

I'm not saying warriors are weak. Very far from it. I'm saying they're incredibly strong. The thing is, warriors are balanced in less obvious ways than other classes, and you'd really need to play them extensively to understand that. And they require more support than other classes because they're the first into battle, first on the frontlines, and a good warrior will know how to body block and take lots of damage, hexes, conditions, etc., a lot of which his armor won't save him from, but will only prolong his death and buy him time until his backline does their thing. Other melee classes, assassins and dervishes, although they can face these same challenges, often don't. Dervishes have their avatars, assassins have their shadowsteps, and neither charges into battle before the warrior does.

Saying that warriors are overpowered because of Mark of Pain, Strength of Honor, Orders, whatever, is retarded. Those are not warrior skills. I don't have any problems with them, because they can be used on any physical damage dealer. If you feel that strongly, call for nerfs on the aforementioned skills, not warriors.

It's not that hard to survive. Before you go in, micro Prot Spirit on yourself. If you get Blinded / Weakened, micro Foul Feast on yourself. If you get hex-stacked, micro Convert Hexes on yourself. Even more dramatic is two ER Elementalists maintaining Holy Veil + Purifying Veil on you. Also, if you're playing with heroes, then Dervishes and Assassins charge right into battle as well since the AI can't play melee.

As for Mark of Pain / Strength of Honour / Orders / whatever, I heavily disagree with that argument. Shadow Form isn't overpowered because it's Shadow Form - it's overpowered because combined with Deadly Paradox and Glyph of Swiftness it can be kept up permanently, and Glyph of Swiftness isn't an Assassin skill. The Ether Renewal template is overpowered, yet it uses at least 3 Monk skills. Skills don't have to belong to the primary profession to be overpowered. Strength of Honour / Barbs / Mark of Pain / GDW / Judge's Insight / Orders / etc can all be used by a supporter, yet for the non-physical professions there isn't such a varied, viable choice of skills to buff their damage.

That said, I agree that Glyph of Swiftness isn't overpowered and Shadow Form is; Infuse isn't overpowered and Ether Renewal is. But for the skills I wrote above, that's not the case. Save Yourselves is overpowered (argue it isn't if you want), For Great Justice is overpowered (it powers Dragon Slash, Brawling Headbutt, Save Yourselves - make it +1 adrenaline per successful attack) and Strength of Honour and Asuran Scan are overpowered (have you seen what Assassins and Dervishes can do with proper support too?).

If you don't want to discuss this though, it's fine with me.

Terek Zelta · Sep 23, 2009, 12:06 AM // 00:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It's not that hard to survive. Before you go in, micro Prot Spirit on yourself. If you get Blinded / Weakened, micro Foul Feast on yourself. If you get hex-stacked, micro Convert Hexes on yourself. Even more dramatic is two ER Elementalists maintaining Holy Veil + Purifying Veil on you. Also, if you're playing with heroes, then Dervishes and Assassins charge right into battle as well since the AI can't play melee.

Really? Thanks, you've turned my whole game around.

Yeah, I'm being sarcastic. Sorry. I really am sorry, I don't mean to be a jerk, and don't intend to come off that way, I just have no idea how else to respond to that.

Do you honestly think I don't already know any of what you're saying? What you're saying is moot and has no merit or relevance to this conversation, and all you're doing is, again, agreeing with me but putting a different spin on it and in your arrogance failing to realize we're still saying the same thing, only it seems that you don't play a warrior main and are looking at this from a mostly theoretical point of view. Correct me if I'm wrong there.

Your Shadow Form comparison is ridiculous. It's ridiculous because no warrior in their right mind is going to spec 12 into Smiting Prayers for Strength of Honor, or 12 into Curses for Mark of Pain. We need a team to get that. So you can't compare the two as far as I'm concerned.

Jeydra · Sep 23, 2009, 12:09 AM // 00:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

Yeah, I'm being sarcastic. Sorry. I really am sorry, I don't mean to be a jerk, and don't intend to come off that way, I just have no idea how else to respond to that.

Do you honestly think I don't already know any of what you're saying?

Then how are you dying / having problems?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

It's ridiculous because no warrior in their right mind is going to spec 12 into Smiting Prayers for Strength of Honor, or 12 into Curses for Mark of Pain. We need a team to get that. So you can't compare the two as far as I'm concerned.

So what? If GDW gave +100 damage and 100% chance to KD, would you call it overpowered?

Terek Zelta · Sep 23, 2009, 01:09 AM // 01:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Then how are you dying / having problems?

I'm not. I never said I was. The only thing Isaid to that effect was that I could die very easily in HM if my monk doesn't know how SY works, and many don't. Mine learned the hard way. I also said that a warrior is only as good as his team, while a lot of other classes can do really well regardless because they're more self-sufficient. I do very well myself, and have a very good reputation among my guild and friends. Do you read my posts or do you just take the first few sentences and think you have the gist of what I'm saying?

What's happening here is people are taking what I say out of context and attempting silly one-upmanship, without proposing any solid arguments against what I'm actually saying. You don't want to discuss this, you want to prove how much better you are than me. I'm above that.

But that's seriously okay. I love this place. You guys have taught me a lot. So, it's my turn to reciprocate. Not for you specifically, but for anyone, you know?

<3 you guys and your gigantic egos.

Jeydra · Sep 23, 2009, 01:14 AM // 01:14

And you were the one saying Warriors needing to charge in ahead of the rest of his team is a drawback ...

If you want to avoid an argument, fine with me.

ElnoreVarda · Sep 23, 2009, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Terek has a point regarding arguing against what his actually saying; its very annoying when people dont argue properly, and a serious discussion really that kinda of maturity.

Sadly, i serious discussion in forums isnt really one of my strong side, so ill just say that "warriors is only as strong as the rest of the team", "sins/dervs dont face the same difficulties as wars/ sins/dervs are more self-sufficent than warrs" and "what you say is theory, in pratice its completly different" is bullshit.

On the other hand i think its bullshit to say wars are overpowered too.

M @ T · Sep 23, 2009, 07:48 AM // 07:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

I'm not saying warriors are weak. Very far from it. I'm saying they're incredibly strong. The thing is, warriors are balanced in less obvious ways than other classes, and you'd really need to play them extensively to understand that. And they require more support than other classes because they're the first into battle, first on the frontlines, and a good warrior will know how to body block and take lots of damage, hexes, conditions, etc., a lot of which his armor won't save him from, but will only prolong his death and buy him time until his backline does their thing. Other melee classes, assassins and dervishes, although they can face these same challenges, often don't. Dervishes have their avatars, assassins have their shadowsteps, and neither charges into battle before the warrior does.

That, specially the underlined part.

For example watch a few GvG matches. You won't see many monks infusing a spiked war because of his high armor. That's why Wars use PRage and Frenzy, because if he/she is half good will cancel stance in time and a WoH is enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Terek Zelta

Saying that warriors are overpowered because of Mark of Pain, Strength of Honor, Orders, whatever, is retarded. Those are not warrior skills. If you feel that strongly, call for nerfs on the aforementioned skills, not warriors.

All i can say about the above is;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

It's not that hard to survive. Before you go in, micro Prot Spirit on yourself. If you get Blinded / Weakened, micro Foul Feast on yourself. If you get hex-stacked, micro Convert Hexes on yourself. Even more dramatic is two ER Elementalists maintaining Holy Veil + Purifying Veil on you.

If you micro this, if you micro that, if war gets blind, hexed yada yada yada.. We are saying the exact same thing. Good Wars are good when their mid/backline is good.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I find it hard to imagine that some Warriors think it's hard to outdamage an Elementalist using a martial weapon

Did I ever say that it's hard for a War to outdamage a squishy using a martial weapon? I never did. I said quite the opposite. Wars are DPS machines.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

That said, I agree that Glyph of Swiftness isn't overpowered and Shadow Form is; Infuse isn't overpowered and Ether Renewal is. But for the skills I wrote above, that's not the case.

This has nothing to do with Warriors being balanced or not.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Save Yourselves is overpowered

Who said it's not? I only said that it is a /W skill. Paragons actually abuse it in combination with "There's Nothing to Fear!" which is OP itself too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

For Great Justice is overpowered (it powers Dragon Slash, Brawling Headbutt, Save Yourselves (make it +1 adrenaline per successful attack)

FGJ is also a /W skill and it is nerfed in PvP. So make it +1, it doesn't really matter. Brawling Headbutt is a universal skill too as SY is like I said above.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

and Strength of Honour and Asuran Scan are overpowered (have you seen what Assassins and Dervishes can do with proper support too?).

Again, this has nothing to do with Warriors being balanced or not.

Tenebrae · Sep 23, 2009, 08:35 AM // 08:35

How sad ppl faking tests on HM to support its argument :/ . Saying some melee support skills are overpowered and so that is warrior is kinda useless. Sounds like someone is looking for something to blame and thats it . PvE skills work better with melee than casters ? ye why not but that has nothing to do with Warriors.

Jeydra · Sep 23, 2009, 11:22 AM // 11:22

You said:

Quote:

Originally Posted by M @ T

You only hit 100 on autoattack in LoL M, sorry, NM.

I'm sorry, I hit 100 on an autoattack in HM, and I used an Elementalist primary. Unless you are claiming that Elementalists wield Swords better than Warriors, so too can a Warrior hit 100 on an autoattack in HM.

Like Terek Zelta, I'm not going to comment on the rest.

M @ T · Sep 23, 2009, 12:07 PM // 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

I'm sorry, I hit 100 on an autoattack in HM, and I used an Elementalist primary. Unless you are claiming that Elementalists wield Swords better than Warriors, so too can a Warrior hit 100 on an autoattack in HM.

1st off, you used Asuran Scan. 2ndly I see a smiter, so you might have;

- Bonded up
- Asuran Scaned
- +20% if Hexed
- Hit
- Removed Bonds asap
- Screenshot
* Let's not forget that your so called HM foe was a squishy, lvl 24 outside LA.

But ok, I'll go with your terms. So, if an ele hits 100 on autottack with 12 attributes on a weapon mastery, a war will do almost the same because he is using 14 attributes. And don't get me started on Strength because it applies when using skills. So, if a war is autoattacking for that amount of damage, a Derv or a Sin or a Ranger or a Para can do as well. ZomFg melee/ranged attacking classes are wtfOP.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Like Terek Zelta, I'm not going to comment on the rest.

Ofcourse you are not going too, because I'm right.